I'm also a noob. I came to this site from Craig's hearth.com site. As expected, another well run endeavour. I'm looking for advice on whether a mini or micro drone would be useful in my business. I do building inspections and occassionally cannot access certain roofs, chimneys, etc. I thought it might be useful to use a drone to take photos or video of what I can't see up close with a ladder. Does anyone have any input or ideas? Ideally, I would like to be able to see in real time what I am flying next to rather than fly around, take video and then have to view it back on the ground. Is this expensive? Is it even do-able? Craig, if my post belongs in one of the forums, please either move it there or send me a PM and I will write up a new post there.
Hey, JD, I gave this it's own thread since it's a subject in itself.... I have thought, of course, of this exact use and even done some further thinking on designing and prototyping. There is a short answer and a long answer...... The short answer is that this is totally doable and a need waiting for development and invention. To do it right would require a custom combo of stuff and some development. The longer answer is that nothing off the shelf is going to do the job without a lot of work and possibly downsides. It's a perfect use for a quad - but to do it right would require someone to initially develop some of the hardware, etc. As an example, here is one combo I pondered - it would be relatively easy to develop a quad which carried up a small sled that let it land right on top of a chimney and then be rotated (once it landed) with a camera for inspection of the crown. You could also eventually have a small cam which lowered down the flue from an onboard small hoist! But, as with anything else, the pioneers pay the price! I think a really good system will require someone (or a company) to do he R&D and development and sale of the custom parts and total package.... As to cost, I'd give a range. A DIY system could probably be mocked up for less than $1,000 - but a semi-pro system sold with cams, sleds and various other stuff to make it easier to use - AND, which came with factory training - would be more like $5-10K. That's not an outrageous price when you figure what it might be able to do... If you know anyone ambitious enough to want to develop and experiment with this, I'd be glad to help out what it should do and all the possibilities, etc. But this inventor is getting a bit too old and lazy to follow the whole thing through...need some young guns!
One thing to keep in mind is that commercial use of UAVs is currently illegal in the US without a pilots license. I have no idea how strictly it's enforced and your post didn't indicate where you're from, but if you're from the US it's something to consider.
I'm not sure this would apply at a height less than a house on private property....especially when the actual service is not mostly drone-based.....lots of gray areas, it seems AND the current hearings and changes being proposed would almost surely allow for private property use to certain heights. "Federal legislation enacted last year requires the FAA to prepare a plan to open U.S. skies in 2015 to widespread use of unmanned aircraft by public agencies and private industry." While you could posit that it is technically not legal, I think a conversation with the FAA would show that this is not one of their concerns (real estate photog on private property, crop inspection, etc.) In any case, it's likely that this will be addressed before such a vehicle came to fruition....so I wouldn't let "being ahead of the curve" slow me down. In fact, that's more reason to enter the market - as those who start now will have a jump on things. I do have an advanced class Ham license.....but that doesn't help with commercial stuff.
Oh yes, there are gray areas a-plenty. Most of the legislation regarding UAVs is clear as mud right now lol! And yes by 2015 it should be a moot point. Still though, might be prudent for the OP to look into it prior to spending a sizable chunk of change. I'm not really sure why this would require a custom platform though. Maybe I missed something, but It seems like any reasonably stable Tri/Quad/Hexa with an FPV cam and a high def camera for photos should do the job. Developing the skills to fly it well enough to maneuver it into position and get the shots without crashing it is the tricky part.
Those are the problems which need solving - easy enough for anyone fairly handy to think up most of the stuff..... 1. It needs to be able to be easily and safely navigated - even in windy condition (up to 15 mph, for example) - this is not true of many of the existing setups. The problems, IMHO, are more software related than hardware... 2. It needs to have various integrated attachments - probably more than one camera, for instance. It needs to have the sled I mentioned which allows it to easily land on most chimney tops and then be able to be spun from there. It may need to have modes where infrared and other sensors can be turned on and off - so it can inspect roofs and flashings without hitting the stuff. One of my future forums here is gonna be called "Drone Dreaming" and it will be for discussion of all these types of topics...what we want to do with quads as they because actually useful. This is not unlike computers - they existed for a decade or more as hobbyists tools before they did anything useful (visicalc!).... I don't like delving into the legality because it will change so fast. If we all wait for the government to approve something before forging ahead with R&D and invention, we'd be in sad shape. Not that I champion breaking the law, just that it tends to lag a little behind. It was probably "illegal" to put my first CD's onto my computer as digital files and then onto my MP3 player! It's a whole 'nother subject when safety is involved. I would not approve of hobbyists flying over crowds or in airspace which could endanger civil aviation, etc. But, as I mentioned, by the time all of these advanced ideas see the light of day, that should not be as much of an issue. Heck, you can take a 50 foot cherry picker and take photos of your chimney and house, but I doubt you are allowed to use one on a public street or in the park! Americans are unlikely to take well to the idea of government telling them they cannot fly to look at their roof!
The neat thing about developing stuff like this, if I ever do some of it, is that it's ALL tax deductible!
I think the DJI Phantom Vision would work very well for you; it is supposed to be released in July. Or just the regular Phantom with a FPV rig.
I agree - but obstacle avoidance and other such features would be needed to even slightly commercialize this. Also, some training would be needed so buyers would not lose their $1500 after a few flight! A zoom camera (lens) operable from the ground station would also be a nice touch so the quad operator would not have to get quite as close! Or, at minimum, a zoom which you could set previous to takeoff and then have it use a intervalometer to take pics every couple of seconds.
I really think you'd need much more information from the OP on what his actual requirements are before trying to determine what he needs. Based on what he said his needs might be met with an AR Drone, a Phantom Vision, or it might take a 10k octo with custom firmware and a high powered camera. He hasn't really said enough about what his requirements are to make that determination at this point. Since he was asking about micros I tend to think his needs would lean toward the low end, but I don't think you can patently say he needs obstacle avoidance and all of that other stuff based on what he's stated so far, there's a very good chance a Vision or regular phantom with a gopro and some time spent with a sim would suit his needs just fine. Sometimes the cheap simple solutions are all a person needs.
JDInspector, Could you provide a little more information on what your requirements are? Some information that might be helpful... - How high up would the drone need to fly? Are we talking house level, or multi-story buildings? - What kind of conditions would it have to fly in? Wind? Rain? Snow? Or would it only be used in fair weather? - How high quality do you need on the video? - How close would you have to get? - What are you looking for? Major faults, subtle cracks, or something in-between? - Would you need to maneuver around objects, or would it be mostly flying in the open? - Do you know an experienced pilot who could pilot your rig, or would you be doing the flying yourself? - Would you be footing the bill yourself (ie: self employed), or would it be paid for by an employer - Do you have any electronic skills? Would you be comfortable doing the inevitable repairs? - Can you give a hypothetical description of what a typical mission might be like? Walk it right through from takeoff to landing. I think what you're asking is very doable, and this information might help point you in the right direction.
All true - except that I have been in the chimney and fireplace business for 30+ years and have some idea of what the average sweep would need... In other words, I obtained a lot of the information by climbing on roofs, inspecting chimneys, sweeping them, lining them and also holding a patent for chimney inventions..... I don't think as much about what the OP wants as I do about the various options which any chimney or roof inspector may need...both now and in the future. As I mentioned, I have thought about doing some R&D on this particular application. There would likely be a market for very inexpensive models with easily replaceable parts - that way it wouldn't be as bad to break or lose one. But there are also markets for more advanced models. As an example, here are chimney inspection video kits up to about $5,000. Some cost more.... http://chimscan.net/chim-scan%C2%AE_units/series_450 So, yes, I fully agree that a market exists for products from approx. $500 to $5,000 (in this case).
My real experience is dreaming up stuff and spending large sums of money on it never to see a big return.... In fact, I was thinking of a forum room called Drone Dreaming just for all this stuff. The difference now is that most of these Dreams will actually come true. Problem is, I lack the ambition to get in the real game of making and selling the things....but I'd be a great consultant! BTW, these are the chimney inventions I patented. I spent enough on these to buy 100+ Phantom visions. Then again, I had fun: http://extendaflue.com/
Well my experience is in learning just enough about any given topic to be dangerous, and also in being able to open my mouth just wide enough to get my foot into it. Fortunately I do seem to be smart enough to shut up before I get the other foot in there with it . Seriously though, I think "Drone Dreaming" would be a fun forum. I think a good comparison for the current state of Drone technology would be cell phones of 10 years ago. I believe we'll see a similar expolsion in both capabilities and popularity of drones over the next 5-10 years, and it would be fun to have a forum to catalog peoples predictions and wishes just to see how many of them come true. Anyway, getting way off topic here...
As a another Professional Home inspector, I would like to chime in here. At least from my perspective and experience, this type of inspection would be called for when access for an actual walk on or close-up inspection is not feasible or is unsafe for some reason. Steeply pitched roofs, Clay tile or slate which is fragile as egg shells, wet or snow-covered roofs or just one that is excessively high > 20 feet or so. As far as conditions, I wouldn't feel comfortable working with a UAV in windy conditions or snow/rain. I would defer that roof to another day due to unsafe conditions. Quality? 720 P or better for video and at least 8 to 10 megapixels for stills. Given high enough resolution one could always crop and resize as needed. I do this now. I have a fairly high resolution camera with a 10 X optical zoom. If I need more detail, I just crop and resize. I actually have software that will resize and enhance. How close? Variable situation. This depends on the capabilities of the photo equipment. Obviously, with lower quality one would have to get closer to get the details. What am I looking for? On roof inspections I'm looking for the condition of the roof coverings, condition of flashings and signs of patching or homeowner attempts at roof repairs is a red flag for further problems. On the chimney inspection, I don't think it would be feasible to actually lower a camera down the flu as was suggested earlier. Most chimneys have some kind of Spark arrestor or chimney that would prevent this in any case. The type of inspection you would do with the UAV would be the roof to chimney flashing, condition of the brick/stone work and mortar, the condition of the chimney crown etc. In my case, this would be a one-horse show. I would be both the operator and the inspector. All costs would be borne by me personally (actually my company, but that still me) Yes, I have some skills. I'm a geek and somewhat of a hacker and fully capable of making repairs. Not quite up to circuit board hacking or custom circuit board designs in serious electronic stuff but I can put parts together from off-the-shelf components and make it work. Typical scenario would be me arriving at a inspection site and discovering some condition about inspecting the roof that was less than favorable (as mentioned above) but as a service to my client being able to provide at least a "flyby visual inspection" that would be better than trying to scan the roof with binoculars from up the street. This is not always possible because of trees and intervening buildings etc. As a home inspector, we are generally bound by Standards of Practice of a home inspection Association that states we are "Generalists" and not specialists. We do a general visual inspection and refer out to a specialist if there are significant issues that need further evaluation. I am also an Infrared Thermographer but as a Generalist, I don't break out the camera during a normal home inspection. Again the SoPs usually prohibit using specialized inspection equipment. I will occasionally sneak it out of the bag and do a covert scan if I suspect moisture intrusion issue. I sell my infrared services as a separate, standalone inspection for a fee. Having said all of that, I am seriously interested in pursuing this field of endeavor. I'm in my research phase at the moment but may pull the trigger on a purchase, likely an AR or similar in RTF condition as a proof of concept and trainer. My business is a very competitive field and any little edge to make the difference between getting an inspection and not getting one. I have several Realtors that refer me just because I have an infrared camera. I also do light commercial buildings and sometimes hidden on the roof of those is a pain in the ass.
I'm just waiting for Mr. or Mrs. Moneybags to come to me and say "Craig, we'd like you to be the generalist and board member of our new development firm, of which the first project is to build a <$2500 construction inspection quad." Of course, the project has to be part-time and mostly virtual (home office). I'm definitely going to do the Drone Dreaming forum...that's been the plan from day one. Soon come, as they say in Jamaica.
Well, the Drone Dreaming forum is up and running! To celebrate, here are some quickie pics of a chimney and a stone wall - taken on an extremely windy day without FPV and with an $80 camera (Mobius)......
Hi All, I am sorry. Things were quite busy this summer and I didn't have much time to think about this. Dana's response is pretty much exactly my situation. I couldn't have written it better myself. So the photos that Craig showed above this comment are about what I would like to get. I am not sure the whole idea about a "sled" is really necessary, and the inspection of chimney liners isn't something I think I need to do. (or would want to do) I may want closer up photos of flashings, tuckpointing issues, etc. To Dana, things here (Chicago) are also pretty competitive. I keep VERY busy with my work and don't think I need a competitive advantage yet, but I do try to stay ahead of the "other guy". So have you gone forward with this at all? Any recommendations? To Craig, I'm not afraid to spend the $$ that you're talking about to make this work for me. I don't have any desire to make and sell these (at least I don't think I do), so a DIY system would be great for me. Who knows, there might be an audience for others to purchase this and I could be swayed into pursuing the proto-type idea. Finally, regarding the whole FAA thing. I'm in agreement that I would go forward with this and use it at work only. Frankly, I think that it's only a 50-100 use per year thing anyways. I have lots of ladders. This would only be for snowy days, really steep roofs, etc. Thanks all for your comments and suggestions.
